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Advice on knives, I need your help please! |
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abernick
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Joined: 24 September 2015 Location: Castellabate Status: Offline Points: 8 |
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Topic: Advice on knives, I need your help please!Posted: 25 September 2015 at 14:25 |
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Hi everybody,
first of all a big thank to drinks for sending me here. I am looking for two knife sets, one stainless steel and one ceramics. I am an average home cook, I like cooking all sort of food and I use knives everyday. I will most likely buy them online as I don't have specific needs. I need something of good quality and not too big price. Do any of you guys have any recommendation, mainly for ceramics? Thank you all!!!
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gonefishin
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Joined: 20 September 2012 Status: Offline Points: 1778 |
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Posted: 25 September 2015 at 15:37 |
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Hello Nicko...welcome!
A few questions... Why are you looking to buy SS and ceramic sets of knives? Are there any knives that you find yourself using more than others? What is it that you hope to gain by adding the ceramic knife to your tool chest? Also, have you given any thought to sharpening any of the knives? What do you use now, what do you plan to use? thanks...have a great day! Dan
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drinks
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Joined: 19 September 2014 Location: male Status: Offline Points: 372 |
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Posted: 25 September 2015 at 21:09 |
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What do you consider a set?
A chef knife, 9-11"? A boning knife, 8-10"? A utility knife, 4-5"? A paring knife, 3-4"? A peeler? A sharpener? A steel? Perhaps even a cleaver, meat type, not Chinese. Go on Amazon.com, look at knife sets. I can recommend Rada brand, I have several and for SS they are decent. I had one ceramic knife, it made the trash , fast. |
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HistoricFoodie
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Posted: 26 September 2015 at 08:33 |
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You’ve opened a whole can of worms with this one, Abernick. Selecting a knife is a combination of material, design, purpose, size, weight, what you think about serrated edges, and a whole lot of personal preference. So you should take anything anyone says on the subject with a grain of salt.
If the quality is there, comfort in the hand becomes the primary consideration. Yet, I see very little discussion about handle design, which can make or break your opinion of a particular knife. For example, I won’t own a knife whose handle has finger grips. But I know many professionals who won’t have any other kind. I’ll throw a few thoughts out. Others will chime in. And between us we’ll figure out who shaved the barber. For starters, why ceramic? Everything I’ve heard about them, from home cooks and professionals both, is that if you feel like buying a ceramic knife, go lay down until the feeling passes. They just aren’t up to par. And, for what they are, they’re kind of over-priced. Frankly, and despite the dozen or so knives on my magnetic holders (and that many more in drawers), the typical kitchen only needs three knives: A chef’s knife (depending on preference, that means either a German pattern, a French pattern, or a Japanese design); a utility knife or “petty.” And a paring knife. A good pair of kitchen shears completes the basic outfit. Along with the knives you want a sharpening system that works for you. While nothing beats a set of graduated water stones, if you like using an electric sharpener ignore all the negatives you’ve heard. Anything that keeps your knives sharp is better than dull knives---which are the most dangerous thing in the kitchen. Along with the sharpening system you should have a good steel for use between sharpenings. If you do a lot of your own butchering, a boning knife can be added to the kit---although the utility knife serves admirably for most home butchering. If you do a lot with seafood, a filet knife makes sense as well. A Santuko, btw, is not a chef’s knife in the true sense of the word. So if you want one as part of your kit (and they do have their uses) it should be in addition to, rather than instead of, the chef’s knife. If you bake bread a lot, then a bread knife makes a lot of sense. IMO, this is the only serrated edge you ever need. But that’s me. On the objective side, serrated edges, far too often, are an excuse for an otherwise dull knife. I have never seen a case where the typical home cook had any use for a meat cleaver. And the average person won’t take the time to learn how to use what is a very specialized tool. In practical terms, material choice is either stainless or carbon steel. By and large, carbon steel makes better knives. But they are high maintainance, and if you don’t wish to put the effort they require into them, then stainless is the way to go. Did I mention that the most dangerous thing in the kitchen is a dull knife? So, we’re talking about three, four, or at most, five knives. That being the case, when shopping for knives I pay little attention to money. Quality cutlery is a lifetime investment, so the up-front cost is all but irrelevant. I would rather space out the purchases, starting with a chef’s knife, and save for the others, rather than buying all of them at once by going with cheaply made blades. Not that the price tag is necessarily an indicator of quality. I have, for instance, a chef’s knife that I paid $180 for that’s of the highest quality. But I also have a couple of them that I paid ten bucks each for, that are surprisingly well built. In general, though, you get what you pay for. Or, as somebody once said, the race is not necessarily to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. But that’s the smart way to bet. Personally, I would never purchase a knife I hadn’t handled first. And by that I mean going through the same motions you’d use when actually cutting, chopping, slicing, etc. Given a blade that readily takes, and holds, an edge, everything else depends on balance, weight, and comfort in the hand, and you cannot determine those things long distance. I will not recommend brands for several reasons, the most notable being that different models, withing the same brand, can be better or worse. I have a Chicago Cutlery paring knife, for instance, that I paid something like $3 for more than thirty years ago. It’s one of the best knives I’ve ever had. But I’ve worked with other Chicago Cutlery knives that weren’t worth the effort of opening the package. Hope this helps. |
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But we hae meat and we can eat
And sae the Lord be thanket |
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Tom Kurth
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Joined: 10 May 2015 Location: Alma, MO Status: Offline Points: 251 |
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Posted: 26 September 2015 at 16:47 |
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HF, What defines a utility knife as you used the term?
Also, how often should you have a blade sharpened? I've got some stainless knives that came from a meat-cutting plant that are doing very well twenty years down the road with a good honing on a diamond steel every couple uses. When freshly honed, they seem as sharp as my good German chef's knife which also hasn't been sharpened in about six or seven years. Am I just inured to dull blades? I don't think so: I'm a woodworker by trade. |
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Best,
Tom Escape to Missouri |
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HistoricFoodie
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Posted: 27 September 2015 at 06:23 |
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I don't know if there's a precise definition, Tom. To me, a paring knife runs to about 3 1/2 inches. A utility knife is larger than that, call it, say, 4-6 inches. A utility knife has a light weight blade, compared to a boning knife.
My point, though, was simply that home kitchens do not need the incredibly array of knives you often find there. That's one of the reasons I always recommend against knife sets. You're paying for things you're never going to use. To reiterate, three knives and a set of shears are all the home cook every really needs. Of course, "wants" is another matter. Let me tell you about my cutlery wish list...... As to sharpening, a knife needs to be sharpened with it needs it. There's no other answer. In your case, you are, in effect, resharpening them because a diamond steel is misnamed. They actually remove metal, which is what sharpening is all about. True steeling merely realigned the molacules. With any otherwise sharp knife, steeling has the appearance of sharpening, but no metal is removed. |
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But we hae meat and we can eat
And sae the Lord be thanket |
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gonefishin
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Joined: 20 September 2012 Status: Offline Points: 1778 |
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Posted: 27 September 2015 at 10:23 |
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For my personal preferences, I prefer to piece meal my knife sets as well. Let me buy the type of knife that I want and the specific make of each knife. Don't give me knives that I don't want and that I won't use...let me have the control.
As important as putting together your set of knives, rather than buying a knife set...is buying a honing rod and a method of sharpening. In fact, I would pick the method of sharpening first and then let that be your guide for your knife purchases. Do you really need your bread knife to match the brand of your chef's knife? First off, you do not need to buy an expensive set of waterstones in order to have productive knives. But you shouldn't skimp on your method of sharpening...and I think it should be a question you ask yourself before you end up buying your first knife. How do you intend to sharpen and hone? Another beautiful thing are cutting boards...I love a nice end grain cutting board. But remember that an end grain cutting board needs to be treated...think of all these things as buying a knife. You get your sharpening method, your hone, your knife or knives and a cutting board. Once you become familiar with all of this, then you can think about the next knife. Dan |
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Enjoy The Food!
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Tom Kurth
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Joined: 10 May 2015 Location: Alma, MO Status: Offline Points: 251 |
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Posted: 27 September 2015 at 11:32 |
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Dan, as a cabinet-maker and woodworker, I know more about cutting boards than the knives used on them. For those unfamiliar with treating a cutting board, the following applies to any oiled wood (from a woodworkers perspective).
Treat by saturating the surface with an ample amount of oil. Let sit for 15 minutes then wipe off the excess oil. Let dry for at least 24 hours before re-coating. Follow this schedule to protect the wood: Once a day for a week. Once a week for a month. Once a month for six months. Once every six months for life. And whenever it begins to look dry. There seems to be some disagreement about what oils are safe to use. According to woodwork sources, any drying oil such as boiled linseed oil is safe once it is COMPLETELY dried, which can take some time. Some of these oils have chemical accelerants in them which are not necessarily safe. Lemon oil, walnut oil, mineral oil and similar oils are more likely to be completely safe. I've never had, made or researched an end grain board. Is anything different about caring for one? HF and Dan, thanks for the info. My son's GF is aiming at a career in foods of some sort and we have thought about buying a good knife set for her for Christmas. |
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Best,
Tom Escape to Missouri |
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abernick
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Joined: 24 September 2015 Location: Castellabate Status: Offline Points: 8 |
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Posted: 27 September 2015 at 12:50 |
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Ok guys thank you all so much for your help. Given what you told me I definitely need some stainless steel knives. Low maintenance and better pricing.
Concerning ceramics. Well, I am curious and ready to waste some €50 and give them a try. In these two days I have been making a nice research on what the web can offer including Amazon and crowdfunding and I found what I was looking for: kck.st/1QCCIZi This is a cool project I backed. These guys come from Italy and they have a good cause. I pledged hoping the project will eventually be funded, otherwise I will buy a nice (but a lot pricier) combination. What you guys think?
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drinks
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Posted: 27 September 2015 at 18:08 |
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Reading the blurb, I seem to detect a scam.
I may be wrong, but it really does seem to smell, to me. |
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gonefishin
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Posted: 27 September 2015 at 19:02 |
Thanks for sharing your advice! I may have some questions for you on treating cut logs for a possible butcher table. I'm thinking of treating it the same as I do my cutting boards. Best that I can tell is you want to finish the ends and start treating as soon as possible. Doing this will slow down the drying on the ends and (hopefully) give a more even drying. If you have any additions I could start a new thread...let me know. When treating my cutting boards I use a pharm mineral oil and bees wax. I can't remember where I ended up finding the recipe...but it's served me well for many years. Edge Grain VS End Grain Cutting BoardThe main difference between an end grain cutting board and an edge grain is the orientation of the wood. With an end grain cutting board, the cutting surfaces of the board will be the end grain of the wood. This design is the easiest on your knife since the blade will slip in between the grain of the wood. It also gives the board a self-healing property as cuts and marks will naturally close up and appear to heal over time.
End Grain Cutting Boards the wood is cut into strips and constructed into a board. The main advantages of an end grain cutting board is the durability, ability to hide knife marks, and it will not dull your knives as quickly as plastic or glass cutting boards. Along with hiding knife marks, they are also much easier on your knives as the wood grain parts and the knife edge slides between them as opposed to cutting in to the wood, dulling the blade.
Edge Grain Cutting Boards will be a little tougher on your knives as the blade cuts into the wood instead of slipping between the wood grain. This also means that your board will show more wear and knife marks then their end grain counter parts. Edge grain cutting boards do have few advantages over end grain cutting boards. Edge grain cutting boards do not have to be as thick thus will be lighter than an end grain cutting board. They usually cost much less than the price of an end grain cutting board, however, it is unlikely that they will last as long as an end grain cutting board. With that said, an edge grain cutting board is a good choice for anyone looking to take a step up from a plastic or glass cutting board. - http://wrwoodworking.com/?page_id=57 |
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HistoricFoodie
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Posted: 27 September 2015 at 22:58 |
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Anyone not understand that?
Envision a plank of wood, say 1 x 6 x 18 inches. Putting aside differences between dimentional lumber and true measurements, the 1 x 6 end of the board is the end grain. To construct an end-grain cutting board, cut it into strips measurein 1 x 6 x height of board. Call it two inches. Turn each piece so the actual end is up, and glue them together. Again, not allowing for losses from the kerfs, you'll wind up with an end-grain board measuring 9x6x2 inches. A nice cheese board, but more than you need for that purpose. Start with the same piece of wood, but this time rip it the long way. After you turn each strip and glue them up you'll have an edge-grain board. The only reason end-grain boards are more expensive is because of the amount of wood used. Think of them as "chopping blocks" rather than cutting boards, and you rarely see one that's less than 2 inches thick, with 3 inches more common. Naturally, a real chopping block is exponentially thicker, sometimes measured in feet. It each case you are constructing a new board that is, because of the way you've aligned the grain, structurally stronger than the original, and less likely to warp or twist. But that doesn't mean indestructible. Unless properly maintained, you can kill a good cutting board. F'rinstance, I made a beautiful maple & purpleheart edge-grain cutting board when my youngest got married. His bride, despite my cleaning and maintenance instructions, left it soaking in a sink full of hot, soapy water. Which explains the seam separations and warping. What I'm saying is if you can't, or won't, give a wood board the tlc it deserves, stick with the plastic jobbies. |
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But we hae meat and we can eat
And sae the Lord be thanket |
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abernick
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Joined: 24 September 2015 Location: Castellabate Status: Offline Points: 8 |
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Posted: 28 September 2015 at 06:30 |
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I checked online and these guys have done everything properly. I can't see how this can be a scam, considering also the charity. Also their facebook page is pretty reassuring.
I backed them and I hope someone else will. I will talk to my friends and family and see if I can help this project.
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drinks
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Posted: 28 September 2015 at 12:30 |
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Actual butcher block is the end grain , strip laminate is often advertised as butcher block.
60-70 years ago there were still some butcher shops with the real thing, that is, a section of a tree,roughly 36" high, usually white ash, green ash , sycamore or white oak. Other species were used, depending on the trees available locally. The last one I remember was at Whittenburg's butcher shop, Alamo, TX, in the "60"s. It was about 45" in diameter and was the locally available Rio Grande ash. |
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gonefishin
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Posted: 28 September 2015 at 12:37 |
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Drinks, any advice on how to treat the green butcher block? I've done a bit of reading on kiln drying, various case hardening and other situations and have devised a plan to treat the green wood. But I'd be open to advice as well
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drinks
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Posted: 28 September 2015 at 14:23 |
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I believe the sections were just sawn out, set up, rubbed down with an edible oil and used
Of course the sections were debarked and the top was leveled. The woods were chosen from the species that were naturally crack resistant and that did not have a bad tasting sap. I do not know what species are available to you and virgin timber is rare. Likely something being removed from a development or being cleared for a utility right of way. Today, it may be difficult to find either a one man cross cut or 2 man cross cut saw which could make a large diameter cut. You might find someone with a 20" or so chain saw and a hand plane could do the smoothing of the cut, it just would take a while. If a sawmill is available, they might square a log, sections cut off and the sections bolted together with all thread. There are a number of ways to denude the feline. |
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gonefishin
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Posted: 28 September 2015 at 20:56 |
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thanks drinks...I started a separate thread on the making of a butcher block.
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Effigy
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Posted: 29 September 2015 at 00:25 |
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If its worth anything, the Rada 6¼" cook's knife is my new best friend. Thanks Drinks
![]() Its nothing like my old Felix Solingen utility knife (a trusty 35 year kitchen veteran) BUT...
I also agree that you do not need a lot of knives, find the one that suits your method and style of work. Nor do you need to spend a lot of money - let others do that for you - I have a tiny Victorinox shaping knife bought at the local school gala 'white elephant' stall which is great for paring veges - I paid 20c for it. It is US$12.90 on Amazon. I decent boning knife is good if you work with whole or half beasts... A filleting knife if you deal with fish, but my new Rada produced and excellent fillet, and it shouldn't have, according to the rules of filleting. Historic Foodie is right the feel in your hand is really important. I only ever use wooden cutting boards, and cycle them outside to get 24 hours UV each, every week. We have an enormous hole in the ozone over NZ which gives us a monopoly on UV sterilisation though (Also skin cancer - so eat your fresh fruit and veges, washed down with plenty of red wine |
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HistoricFoodie
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Posted: 29 September 2015 at 08:18 |
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Your UV bombardment certainly doesn't hurt, Ann. But it's probably an unnecessary step if you care for your boards properly; which I gather you do.
Wooden boards are naturally antiseptic. So care consists of washing them with warm, soapy water, giving them a quick rinse, and wiping them dry. If it makes you feel better, a spray-pause-wipe with a sanitizer takes care of any surface germs remaining. I don't bother with it, but Friend Wife is a stickler for it. Like I say, if it makes you feel better, then do it. But it's not really necessary. On the other hand, if I were using synthetic boards there's no way I would skip that step. How often to wash? Certainly anytime you use proteins on it---particularly chicken---to prevent cross-contamination. Then at the end of your work session. Oiling should be done pretty close to the schedule Tom provided, or anytime the wood looks dried out. |
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But we hae meat and we can eat
And sae the Lord be thanket |
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drinks
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Posted: 29 September 2015 at 09:50 |
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Anne, for some reason,my Rada cook's knife carries about 75% of the load in my kitchen,too.
The rest is divided between a 3.5" Rada paring knife, an Old Hickory 4" spear point and an Old Hickory boning knife. If I was being really honest, the rest of my knives could be given away or trashed and I would not be abused. Whoops, forgot my 50 year old Rapala filet knife, the current made in China "Rapala" knives are a bad joke. |
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